Tottenham Hotspur V Aston Villa : Monday 2nd November at 8PM

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What do we expect against Spurs?

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Re: Tottenham Hotspur V Aston Villa : Monday 2nd November at 8PM

Post by villabromsgrove on Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:35 am

GadgetMan wrote:In going against the tide here somewhat, but that's what discussion and debate is for.

I don't believe or one second that KMAC picked a side to deliberately make a point and piss people off. No chance to my mind. Why? He's supposedly a villa man through and through. He's been brought back to the club and a lot of trust placed in him (again) to develop our youth, as well as again being asked to take over as a caretaker. Fox could of asked Parkes? Could of kept the most experienced coach at the club on (Wilkins to pick the side) Wilkins, Robins and Brady were all shipped out with Sherwood as they were the ones who opposed the recruitment policy and had a big problem with Reilly and the Sporting Director. KMac is a villa man and not a Sherwood man.

Could it not be that he picked a side full of people he actually knows? The side contained 10 players that were all there when he was coach last season under TS the 11th being lescott that we all know. To my mind he didn't want a Newcastle (6-1) on his CV again so picked what he knew he could organise to some degree in a short time. He had had no involvement with the French contingent as he's been down with the youth teams. So given a few days and two games to oversee, maybe he's just turned (as a a severely limited manager) to what he knows, as opposed to risking players he has never trained and don't speak his language.

That to me is the obvious answer. I was pissed off with sky and their pisstake view of the whole villa crisis yesterday and them fuelling fans with this notion that a loyal servant like KMac was somehow trying to deliberately screw villa really f**ked me off. Sometimes the obvious answer is the right answer. Now I don't know 100% but I'd imagine if he's deliberately picked that side as a f**k you, he'll be collecting his p45 today like Sherwood and co did for buckling under pressure.

So let's see what happens with him. If he has done that he shouldn't be trusted with our youth development anymore. There's an argument to say he shouldn't anyway after not being diverse and bold enough to pick a better XI (this from the man that bigged up Veretout in the week) I think he's guilty of being inept, not some blatant agenda during a live televised game (unless he wants the sack)

There very well could be some disconnect between the players, old and new, English and French, but I don't see KMac as being part of that.

Anyway we showed the way forward last night and it isn't with the tired and tested (and failed) English lot we have on our books. The only way we get out of this is to get those French lads playing and integrated into the team with the best of the others.

Ship out Gabby (massive trouble maker and has been for years) Lescott, Richardson and Hutton and get Okore in next to Richards and either Crespo or Ilori at RB and Amavi reinstated, Then get a midfield that includes Gana and veretout and build the forward line around Ayew, possibly with Gestede.

Thankfully we have a manager who will most likely do this anyway.  
The problem with KMac's team selection last night was that as well as being a really crap first team it caused a considerable amount of debate about the club's summer transfer policy.

Whether or not KMac intended to highlight the fact that he believed all our summer signings bar one, were not good enough to get into his starting eleven, that was the message that was shouted loud and clear world wide. AVFC are run by a bunch of clowns!

None of us are qualified football coaches or managers, but every one of us could and would have picked a better starting eleven than KMac did last night.

So we have to ask are KMac and Tony Parks idiots, or have they had an agenda for the last two matches?

Think about it, if in either or both of the games against Southampton and Spurs we had fluked a win then that would have caused big problems for Remi Garde, with his remit of integrating the new summer signings into the first team. There would have been a real split between the home grown 'old guard' and the new foreign lads.

Whatever we think about Lerner/Fox the message came across loud and clear yesterday afternoon .... stop being awkward and use the new talent that we spent 52 million pounds plus on a couple of months back. KMac and Parks totally ignored that remit and played ten old Villa players plus Lescott. If last week wasn't two fingers up to Almstadt and Reilly then it can only mean that our remaining coaches are completely inept. Both scenarios should be sacking offences.
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Re: Tottenham Hotspur V Aston Villa : Monday 2nd November at 8PM

Post by Sandie on Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:41 am

I don't want to think it but I am. KMac has served this club for nearly 2 decades and, I thought, is a genuine Villa man who has the club at the heart. Maybe he genuinely feels that the new strategy is the wrong way for the club to head and did it because he cares? Maybe he has loyalty to Sherwood who brought him in? I don't know but I'm not convinced that it was a consequence of picking the players he knows. It certainly wasn't a team to win or even get something from the game by how gutlessly they played.
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Re: Tottenham Hotspur V Aston Villa : Monday 2nd November at 8PM

Post by GadgetMan on Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:45 am

I think it's the latter then. I also think if Parkes was seen as a troublemaker going against the new strategy, he would have been gone with TS and co, after all it was TS who brought him to the club. As for KMac, his loyalty to the Villa cause has always been championed. I think their crime is sticking with what they believe was the set of players to avoid a heavy defeat in both matches. If it's the latter (one big conspiracy against the club) then you could argue both approaches deserve the sack, but for entirely different reasons.

My problem with all this would be if it weren't for Skysports would we REALLY be talking about Kmac deliberately sticking two fingers up at the whole management of the club or would we just be saying "he's out of his depth, thank god we have a new man in"?  I honestly think it would be the latter and all this has been fuelled by a glib, throwaway statement by Gary Neville who seemed  (along with the other two) more intent on taking the piece than providing decent and responsible analysis.

If you guys are correct, I fully expect to see these two removed of their duties in the coming days. Why would they be kept on if they have openly defied the owner and hierarchy?

Edit, just seen your post Sandie, so may as well add this. I don't for one second think he set out to win the game and 100% agree it was the wrong team, I just disagree or having difficulty believing the reasons you guys have put forward for his selections. I guess I'm hoping we aren't that rotten to the very core where a loyal servant like Kmac openly does that. Why? he made himself look foolish, not Villa and their policy, as it was only when he made the changes that we looked any better. It just doesn't make any sense to me.


Last edited by GadgetMan on Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Tottenham Hotspur V Aston Villa : Monday 2nd November at 8PM

Post by Sandie on Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:49 am

Who else could have stepped in to run first team affairs? Is Sid still about and would he have wanted to do it? Other than him we have a lot of young coaches, none of whom have experience of stepping in like MacDonald (and I think?) Parkes have.
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Re: Tottenham Hotspur V Aston Villa : Monday 2nd November at 8PM

Post by GadgetMan on Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:55 am

Sandie wrote:Who else could have stepped in to run first team affairs? Is Sid still about and would he have wanted to do it? Other than him we have a lot of young coaches, none of whom have experience of stepping in like MacDonald (and I think?) Parkes have.

So you think we would keep on to people we didn't trust just as we perceived there was no one else? Again I disagree. read my last post. In making this supposed protest, Kmac has made himself look a fool and proven his way to be wrong and the stuff he so vehemently disagrees with right.....on national television. I'm not buying it. He imo is a man, deeply out of his depth and asked to do something, he probably didn't really want to do, so went with 11 men he knew and had spoken too, trained etc to avoid a total thumping on his watch. The rest is blatant troublemaking by Sky, that has fuelled all of this (Twitter was full of the same last night) As I said, let's see if they're sacked (they may well be anyway depending on who Garde is bringing with him) You'd think Kmac would survive the cull though as he's down in the development. If what you're saying is true though, then he's as good as written his resignation letter....
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Re: Tottenham Hotspur V Aston Villa : Monday 2nd November at 8PM

Post by villabromsgrove on Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:57 am

KMac has my utmost respect for his loyal service to Villa. I've watched his reserve teams play live many times and always enjoyed the old blood and guts and passion.

However, his vocal support for Sherwood after he was sacked, his clear disappointment about their plans for bringing through academy players (was never going to work imo), his apparent reluctance to integrate some new talented (foreign?) players, and his subsequent comments to the media about the new manager and potential coaches, have been unhelpful to say the least.

Edit: These aren't the actions I would have expected from the old and much loved KMac, they're the actions of a disillusioned and out of his depth old warhorse who can't change the habits of a lifetime. (imo)

He looks a decade older than his 54 years!
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Re: Tottenham Hotspur V Aston Villa : Monday 2nd November at 8PM

Post by Sandie on Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:11 pm

Like I said, when Sky said it I thought they were being a bit daft. What started to change my mind was what I saw in the first half. When Westwood had to come off why did he go with a player who plays a different position rather than a straight swap?

I wouldn't go as far as to say it was an act of sabotage, I wouldn't say he was throwing a game to a make a point. There's a world of difference between that and simple politics within an organization. I just think it was a misguided belief that had started under Sherwood. These guys think that, for the most part, the experienced Premier League players are the way to go to keep the club in the league. If that's the case, can you actually knock him and Parkes for anything other than being wrong? As I've said, our experienced players are not battlers, they're for the most part crap, have no guts or past it.
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Re: Tottenham Hotspur V Aston Villa : Monday 2nd November at 8PM

Post by GadgetMan on Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:13 pm

I can't get my head around what is being said.

We think KMAC deliberately picked a side to prove some kind of point? Which was? (The summer recruitment process was wrong?) yet in doing so, he's made himself look stupid and proved that the best players at the club are in fact the very people who were bought with the process he disagreed with?....why would he do that? Answer me this, Would we be talking about it if sky hadnt flippantly said it??

Is it so implausible that KMAC is such a dinosaur in modern football terms that he's just gone with a set of players he actually knows and has trained despite knowing it may not me the best XI at the club? But one he felt he could get the best out of with his skill set and delivery as an old school British coach.

I'm totally happy to be wrong on this, I'm just not getting the logic behind it. The only way his "protest" works if A he sticks to it and doesn't makes changes using one of the French lads, who then scores and shows promise and  B he gets the results with the players he believes are the right ones to pick and therefore prove the recruitment in the summer was wrong. If he's trying to prove a point, the only one he has proved is he's clueless and shouldn't be anywhere near our youth development or club even.


Last edited by GadgetMan on Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:16 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Silly typos. Bloody iPad)
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Re: Tottenham Hotspur V Aston Villa : Monday 2nd November at 8PM

Post by villabromsgrove on Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:32 pm

He had to use a french sub because he used all the home grown players in the starting eleven. Very Happy

Seriously though, I think what we're debating here is a difference in attitude and approach between the Sherwood group (of which I believe KMac and Parks to be firmly in that camp) and the Fox/Almstadt/Reilly group which has the final say (obviously).

I think it fair to argue that a division has developed between the two approaches and KMac/Parks represent the last vestiges of 'Sherwoodism' left at the club.

I think Garde will find it difficult to work with both KMac and Parks, because their views on the way forward are diametrically opposed. Last night's team selection was a red flag raised by a pair of home grown "dinosaurs".
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Re: Tottenham Hotspur V Aston Villa : Monday 2nd November at 8PM

Post by Sandie on Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:43 pm

GadgetMan wrote:I can't get my head around what is being said.

We think KMAC deliberately picked a side to prove some kind of point? Which was? (The summer recruitment process was wrong?) yet in doing so, he's made himself look stupid and proved that the best players at the club are in fact the very people who were bought with the process he disagreed with?....why would he do that? Answer me this, Would we be talking about it if sky hadnt flippantly said it??

Is  it so implausible that KMAC is such a dinosaur in modern football terms that he's just gone with a set of players he actually knows and has trained despite knowing it may not me the best XI at the club? But one he felt he could get the best out of with his skill set and delivery as an old school British coach.

I'm saying that he picked the team he thought was best suited to the task at hand, a team that had only one of our summer signings in it. Perhaps he doesn't yet have much faith in the new players? Perhaps he shared the misgivings that Sherwood had? I think he was very wrong. I think he actually managed to prove that we can't trust our experienced players and they are in fact part of the problem right under the watching eye of our new manager. No grand conspiracy, not going out to lose, just wrong.

If you worked for Aston Villa Industries for nearly two decades and they brought in a new policy and way of working that you disagreed with how would you feel? The head of department doesn't like the policy either, you get on with him (he brought you back to the firm after a spell elsewhere and is a nice guy) and he moans about it to you and you nod and agree with him. He's then sacked for the poor performance of the department and you're made the interim boss. What would you do? Would you use the new tools that you don't think will work as well? Or would you use the old ones that you thought worked better because you thought that was exactly what was needed to help the firm achieve its goals? Doesn't really matter much when a new department boss is coming in and he'll have his own ideas and you can go back to training the apprentices.

That's why I'm unhappy with what happened last night, it's where I think there's a division at the club and it's why I think KMac should NOT be sacked. Send him back to his old job (not at all related to first team selection and transfer matters) where he's got results and hope he isn't being given the interim position again in a couple of months.
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Re: Tottenham Hotspur V Aston Villa : Monday 2nd November at 8PM

Post by villabromsgrove on Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:59 pm

I think KMac has made it very difficult for AVFC to keep him in situ. He could have been pragmatic and picked a team that would have been acceptable to both club and fans, but he chose to make a statement with an outrageous bit of ostrich like team selection.

We thought that he must be resting key players when he put out that team against Southampton didn't we? We were wrong, because he rammed home the point he'd been making with his team selection against Spurs last night.

Can Remi Garde trust a key position to KMac, when he's clearly (and deliberately) shown that he doesn't buy into the direction that the club is planning to go. The same applies to Tony Parks as well.
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Re: Tottenham Hotspur V Aston Villa : Monday 2nd November at 8PM

Post by Sandie on Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:08 pm

In that case he needs to be evaluated on how he does in his normal role. Garde needs to walk into his office and have a chat with him, see if they share a vision and ideas. Judge him on that rather than two games as a supply teacher which doesn't mean a lot in the great scheme of things.

Garde has a track record of bringing through youth players, KMac has a track record of developing youth players. If they don't see eye-to-eye we'll soon know, if they do see eye-to-eye they will become key allies.
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Re: Tottenham Hotspur V Aston Villa : Monday 2nd November at 8PM

Post by villabromsgrove on Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:41 pm

I think that KMac's disappointment with the sacking of Sherwood was genuine and deeply felt. He knew that Sherwood bought in fundamentally to the Academy's development of young players through to first team level, and that was music to his ears. He'd happily stepped down from the assistant managers position to buy into the development of the Academy. He must almost feel betrayed now.

As I understand it, Moneyball is about using statistics to fish in a very large pool for 'undervalued players' to whom you would hope to add value. For a Moneyball system to succeed you need an annual turnover of 'undervalued players' in, followed by moving them on rotationally for a profit. The movement of players means you only have to pay them entry level salaries rather than upgrades. It's a ruthless farming system which means that you look to other people to initially develop a player and you intervene at a beneficial price level.

Remi Garde was successful in bringing through young players at Lyon, and I'm sure that he won't dismiss the Academy system altogether, but he's only the head coach, and the new Villa policy will almost certainly prioritise cheap foreign buys.
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Re: Tottenham Hotspur V Aston Villa : Monday 2nd November at 8PM

Post by Sandie on Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:52 pm

villabromsgrove wrote:Remi Garde was successful in bringing through young players at Lyon, and I'm sure that he won't dismiss the Academy system altogether, but he's only the head coach, and the new Villa policy will almost certainly prioritise cheap foreign buys.

I think the question is not 'how that will go down with Kevin MacDonald?' but 'how will that go down with Remi Garde?'.



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Re: Tottenham Hotspur V Aston Villa : Monday 2nd November at 8PM

Post by villabromsgrove on Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:01 pm

Sandie wrote:
villabromsgrove wrote:Remi Garde was successful in bringing through young players at Lyon, and I'm sure that he won't dismiss the Academy system altogether, but he's only the head coach, and the new Villa policy will almost certainly prioritise cheap foreign buys.

I think the question is not 'how that will go down with Kevin MacDonald?' but 'how will that go down with Remi Garde?'.



I assume that Garde will have some input in the buying process, but I think that he will be limited to agreeing a short list of players in a "statistical pool' from which Almstadt/Reilly will make the most suitable deal.
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