Next Manager?

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Re: Next Manager?

Post by GadgetMan on Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:58 pm

villabromsgrove wrote:Wagner and Johnson excite me with their energies and progressive attitude. We need to change dramatically rather than trying to tweak things, and I think these guys would bust a gut to change things. I fully understand the call for a Bruce or Hughton as a safe pair of 'Championship' hands, and would back either should they be appointed.

Another point to consider is if Wagner/Johnson continue to do well, they will be out of our reach come the end the season in the same way that Eddie Howe is now.

Well here we are again.........all so familiar at B6 (If I believed in this nonsense I would swear we were cursed) another manager comes in full of gusto and fails dramatically and quickly, whilst ageing drastically. We know the drill by now.....


So how do we change this cycle of doom? Never in my worst imagination did I think we would be two points of relegation given our business this summer. Just what the hell is wrong? Is it just the manager? What do Clarke and Bond contribute day to day?

Onto the candidates, we have the usual few Bruce, Warnock (has Curbishley been mentioned ha) McLaren, McCarthy, Woy etc. All of these are candidates that have had success, BUT they've also had a lot of failure and for every promotion there has been many relegations too and quite frankly (for me) they are damn uninspiring. I'm not a fan of any of them, yet see the reasons why some will want them (Bruce in particular)

So do we look at it as a two or three part process? ie we need a man to get us stable and out of the Championship and then someone to get us stable in the EPL and then another to get us challenging at the top end? This for me will be key to who we target. If the club just want a quick 'fix' they may go for a 'steady' hand and get Bruce and the like. If Xia is willing to take a longer view, then maybe he really fancies a total clean sweep?!

Steve Round has been brought in to implement a football philosophy and I guess he would have liked longer, but it can go hand in hand with a new appointment if we're smart. Let's be adventurous and progressive in our thinking and put faith in some new methods and a REAL change at the club, backed up with Rounds view and direction.

Given this, I'd go hell for leather to get the likes of Wagner = he can't just be based on 12 games, he did a lot to turn Huddersfield around from November last year and really mould a footballing culture and philosophy that is played at all levels of the club now, he has them training at 3pm to replicate game day, the little details like this really appeal to me and importantly he has them winning games. A real bright guy and a live wire with the energy and drive to drag this club out of the doldrums. If he isn't attainable then I'd look at the the likes of Rowett, Johnson or Dean Smith.......

If they are all too much of a risk, then the middle ground of Hughton, Flores, Dyche (if he could be persuaded to drop down, GT did when at Watford) would be the preferred option over the 'old guard' for me personally.

This next appointment is critical (aren't they all) we could really kick on or languish in the lower to mid table of the Championship and just fade away to also rans at this level. I'd say this, EVERY manager at VP is a risk, so don't let that be a factor. Have a clear blueprint for what we want in a manager and as important PERSONALITY and resilience. This club/job swallows people whole and we need someone with brass balls as well as a footballing pedigree.

I'm intrigued to see the direction Dr Xia goes in. Given he appointed RDM as he had the Champions League on his CV could he pull off a surprise and try and go for the unreachable with the likes of Hiddink, Bielsa, Mancini............Van Gaal anyone? Here's a list of managers currently out of work http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/trainer/verfuegbaretrainer/statistik

I think as Xia has shown, he is a maverick, what say will he actually have or will he leave it totally to Round, Wyness and Little? I wonder.............


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Re: Next Manager?

Post by Sandie on Tue Oct 04, 2016 3:08 pm

villabromsgrove wrote:Another point to consider is if Wagner/Johnson continue to do well, they will be out of our reach come the end the season in the same way that Eddie Howe is now.

I think we are still a big draw and unless something goes badly wrong (like another relegation) then it's going to take a lot longer than 3/4s of a season for the likes of Wagner or Johnson to burnish their reputation sufficiently to be too big for Aston Villa. People were waxing lyrical about Remi Garde a year ago about how he developed players and his philosophy on the game. He was a protege of Wenger we were told (much like the link between Klopp and Wagner is being played up now). However, he was an absolute disaster when we needed a safe pair of hands. He had many positive attributes but he was totally the wrong man for the moment we found ourselves in. Now, I admit that it's a different situation. We're under-performing as the players we have are good enough for the other end of the league table and there's a different regime overseeing things but we're 19th and it's a high pressure role at the best of times. Just under a year at Huddersfield Town does not equip you for or earn you that kind of role. Follow any league in world football and there's always that team that starts the season like a train. There have been many teams like that but very few Leicesters who actually sustain it. Most drop away.

I've looked a bit more at Johnson and he appeals much more than Wagner having succeeded in the football league over a few seasons with three different clubs. Like Wagner, however, he gets his best results having had the chance to build his own side and given time to work with players. Time is the one commodity that there isn't with us. Di Matteo had 124 days in charge and because of that badly wrong appointment we need someone who can effect an immediate upturn in results. We do have players who are good enough to turn things around but we also have what I suspect is a major morale issue and a rightfully impatient fanbase.
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Re: Next Manager?

Post by Sandie on Tue Oct 04, 2016 3:11 pm

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Re: Next Manager?

Post by villabromsgrove on Tue Oct 04, 2016 3:44 pm

Excellent post GM.

I'm sure that Cotterill will not be our next manager. I think it's just Sky Bet trying to get a few more quid in Sandie.

My current top two candidates are:

1) David Wagner

2) Lee Johnson

I like Dean Smith because he's a down to earth no nonsense football man, but I wonder whether he has the vision and drive that I think I can see in both DW/LJ.

I take the point about time being in short supply, but I think it's probably time we stopped trying to put new sticky plasters on our wounds and accept that we need a complete change of philosophy.

I'm not saying I'm right .... it's just my current thoughts on where we're at.
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Re: Next Manager?

Post by Sandie on Tue Oct 04, 2016 4:43 pm

I'm not sure that we have sought sticking plasters in the past few managers. Garde was a progressive, foreign manager (which was completely the wrong type for our situation), Sherwood and Lambert were both seen as promising young managers and then there was Di Matteo. I'm not sure what he was. I think the Doctor and his people were blinded by his Champions League win. Each time we were told there was a grand plan, each time we had hype around these managers (really apart from Dim Tim) and each time these managers failed.

We staunchly avoided Bruces, Allardyces and Moyeses with each of these appointments. The thing was that by the end of the Lerner period what we actually needed was a safe pair of hands to stabilise a plummeting club. This time it's much more complex, I admit. There's good players here and a quick fix isn't necessarily essential. I can see the right promising manager doing well with it and there are plenty of compelling options in the middle ground. Personally, I'd like it to be someone from left field.
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Re: Next Manager?

Post by GadgetMan on Tue Oct 04, 2016 5:02 pm

Sandie wrote:
villabromsgrove wrote:Another point to consider is if Wagner/Johnson continue to do well, they will be out of our reach come the end the season in the same way that Eddie Howe is now.

I think we are still a big draw and unless something goes badly wrong (like another relegation) then it's going to take a lot longer than 3/4s of a season for the likes of Wagner or Johnson to burnish their reputation sufficiently to be too big for Aston Villa. People were waxing lyrical about Remi Garde a year ago about how he developed players and his philosophy on the game. He was a protege of Wenger we were told (much like the link between Klopp and Wagner is being played up now). However, he was an absolute disaster when we needed a safe pair of hands. He had many positive attributes but he was totally the wrong man for the moment we found ourselves in. Now, I admit that it's a different situation. We're under-performing as the players we have are good enough for the other end of the league table and there's a different regime overseeing things but we're 19th and it's a high pressure role at the best of times. Just under a year at Huddersfield Town does not equip you for or earn you that kind of role. Follow any league in world football and there's always that team that starts the season like a train. There have been many teams like that but very few Leicesters who actually sustain it. Most drop away.

I've looked a bit more at Johnson and he appeals much more than Wagner having succeeded in the football league over a few seasons with three different clubs. Like Wagner, however, he gets his best results having had the chance to build his own side and given time to work with players. Time is the one commodity that there isn't with us. Di Matteo had 124 days in charge and because of that badly wrong appointment we need someone who can effect an immediate upturn in results. We do have players who are good enough to turn things around but we also have what I suspect is a major morale issue and a rightfully impatient fanbase.

Good points re the comparison of Garde and Wagner, I was one who championed him. I was wrong, however he had a lot of crap to work with (players and boardroom stuff) and think he'd do a lot better now, but yes wrong man at the wrong time. What impresses me about Wagner (being drawn in again haha) is apart from this https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/sep/09/huddersfield-david-wagner-no-electricity-no-beds-football-championship is the fact that he got 13 new players in the summer and has very quickly been able to get them gelling and playing well and WINNING. Exactly what we need to do and quickly. I appreciate he's a risk, but as an example has Bruce done it at a big club with big stakes and pressure? He was terrible at Sunderland (his biggest job) Seems like a big fish in a small pond manager to me. I worry about the small section of hardcore fans that would use the very old blues link the second he lost two on the bounce. Good CV on paper, but are we an all together different proposition? Just not for me at all.
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Re: Next Manager?

Post by GadgetMan on Tue Oct 04, 2016 5:05 pm

villabromsgrove wrote:Excellent post GM.

I'm sure that Cotterill will not be our next manager. I think it's just Sky Bet trying to get a few more quid in Sandie.

My current top two candidates are:

1) David Wagner

2) Lee Johnson

I like Dean Smith because he's a down to earth no nonsense football man, but I wonder whether he has the vision and drive that I think I can see in  both DW/LJ.

I take the point about time being in short supply, but I think it's probably time we stopped trying to put new sticky plasters on our wounds and accept that we need a complete change of philosophy.

I'm not saying I'm right .... it's just my current thoughts on where we're at.

These are my thoughts too, unless as I said in my other post the good Dr really wants to go for it and 'try' and entice a real big fish. You don't know until you ask.
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Re: Next Manager?

Post by Chris Harte on Tue Oct 04, 2016 6:48 pm

GadgetMan wrote:

I'm intrigued to see the direction Dr Xia goes in. Given he appointed RDM as he had the Champions League on his CV could he pull off a surprise and try and go for the unreachable with the likes of Hiddink, Bielsa, Mancini............Van Gaal anyone? Here's a list of managers currently out of work http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/trainer/verfuegbaretrainer/statistik


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Re: Next Manager?

Post by Sandie on Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:11 pm

GadgetMan wrote:Good points re the comparison of Garde and Wagner, I was one who championed him. I was wrong, however he had a lot of crap to work with (players and boardroom stuff) and think he'd do a lot better now, but yes wrong man at the wrong time. What impresses me about Wagner (being drawn in again haha) is apart from this https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/sep/09/huddersfield-david-wagner-no-electricity-no-beds-football-championship is the fact that he got 13 new players in the summer and has very quickly been able to get them gelling and playing well and WINNING. Exactly what we need to do and quickly. I appreciate he's a risk, but as an example has Bruce done it at a big club with big stakes and pressure? He was terrible at Sunderland (his biggest job) Seems like a big fish in a small pond manager to me. I worry about the small section of hardcore fans that would use the very old blues link the second he lost two on the bounce. Good CV on paper, but are we an all together different proposition? Just not for me at all.

I think the key difference between ourselves just now and Sunderland when Bruce took charge is that they were a club looking to push on from the relegation battle in the Premiership which, I'd suggest, was uncharted territory for Bruce in his managerial career. In contrast our present goal is to push up the Championship and possibly challenge for promotion. Bruce has been successful in that before in his career. I wouldn't suggest that he was the man to push us on if we were in the PL but once he gets us there then I'd look to move on to a more progressive manager within a season.

However, I do agree that the big issue would be how our fans would take to him. I actually think that a far greater proportion of our fans would be more positive if we snatched Gary Rowett straight from the Blues. I think this perception is probably the deal breaker for Blues. However, I'd argue there are plenty of managers between the two extremes of Wagner and Bruce.

I also wonder if the import that he places on bonding a group and the project at Huddersfield (as in the interesting article you linked) might make Wagner reluctant to leave?
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Re: Next Manager?

Post by Sandie on Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:57 pm

Pat Murply has tweeted that we have a shortlist of 10 with Bruce and Steve Clarke on it as well as a number of currently in work managers. Not presently under consideration are Allardyce, Cotterill, Giggs, McClaren, Pearson or Sherwood. Brian Little, Wyness and Steve Round are to conduct enquiries and take soundings sifting the 10 down to 3 at which point the Doc will become involved.
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Re: Next Manager?

Post by villabromsgrove on Wed Oct 05, 2016 1:38 pm

The new manager needs to get both the players and fans one hundred percent behind him. Bruce is the best of the 'old heads' available, but he would not have the total backing of fans unfortunately. Clarke has a lot to do to convince us that he can add anything different to what he has already been involved in producing over the past 12 games.

That leaves a currently employed manager. KW/SR/BL should have enough experience to thoroughly research candidates in order to get the right individual to make a real difference at both VP and BMH.

The players are now in a position where they have individually and collectively lowered their expectations. They need a new regime which will energise them and make them feel like they are going to win each time they step on the pitch. The new manager has to show that belief and commitment on a twenty four hours a day basis. It's a big job!
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Re: Next Manager?

Post by Sandie on Wed Oct 05, 2016 1:45 pm

Equally, we've got a number of experienced players and players who have played at the highest level. Will some contenders have sufficient gravitas to get them on side even if their CVs are lacking?
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Re: Next Manager?

Post by GadgetMan on Wed Oct 05, 2016 1:55 pm

Chris Harte wrote:
GadgetMan wrote:

I'm intrigued to see the direction Dr Xia goes in. Given he appointed RDM as he had the Champions League on his CV could he pull off a surprise and try and go for the unreachable with the likes of Hiddink, Bielsa, Mancini............Van Gaal anyone? Here's a list of managers currently out of work http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/trainer/verfuegbaretrainer/statistik


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Haha!! I wonder why?? Cool
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Re: Next Manager?

Post by GadgetMan on Wed Oct 05, 2016 2:02 pm

Sandie wrote:
GadgetMan wrote:Good points re the comparison of Garde and Wagner, I was one who championed him. I was wrong, however he had a lot of crap to work with (players and boardroom stuff) and think he'd do a lot better now, but yes wrong man at the wrong time. What impresses me about Wagner (being drawn in again haha) is apart from this https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/sep/09/huddersfield-david-wagner-no-electricity-no-beds-football-championship is the fact that he got 13 new players in the summer and has very quickly been able to get them gelling and playing well and WINNING. Exactly what we need to do and quickly. I appreciate he's a risk, but as an example has Bruce done it at a big club with big stakes and pressure? He was terrible at Sunderland (his biggest job) Seems like a big fish in a small pond manager to me. I worry about the small section of hardcore fans that would use the very old blues link the second he lost two on the bounce. Good CV on paper, but are we an all together different proposition? Just not for me at all.

I think the key difference between ourselves just now and Sunderland when Bruce took charge is that they were a club looking to push on from the relegation battle in the Premiership which, I'd suggest, was uncharted territory for Bruce in his managerial career. In contrast our present goal is to push up the Championship and possibly challenge for promotion. Bruce has been successful in that before in his career. I wouldn't suggest that he was the man to push us on if we were in the PL but once he gets us there then I'd look to move on to a more progressive manager within a season.

However, I do agree that the big issue would be how our fans would take to him. I actually think that a far greater proportion of our fans would be more positive if we snatched Gary Rowett straight from the Blues. I think this perception is probably the deal breaker for Blues. However, I'd argue there are plenty of managers between the two extremes of Wagner and Bruce.

I also wonder if the import that he places on bonding a group and the project at Huddersfield (as in the interesting article you linked) might make Wagner reluctant to leave?

All very valid points Sandie. I agree that there are many options between Bruce and Wagner. I just hope our board get the right one. For years now we've had no identity as a club, on of off the field and I guess I'd forsake an immediate return to the EPL (big ask anyway this season now) in favour of a man who can make sweeping changes to our culture and philosophies, whether that be Wagner or someone of that ilk over a "shot in the arm" type man like Bruce. Can you honestly say at any of his clubs he has built anything? he hasn't he has taken clubs with low expectations and over achieved, relatively pressure free. He won't get that at Villa and that's what makes me think he's not the guy for us. No playing style, no modern thinking, a quick fix and ultimately uninspiring and dull in what should be an exciting new era!!

That said I still get why people see him as a 'safe pair of hands' I personally think he's just as much of a risk at OUR club than any other manager, so why not go down the road of a total rebirth?

As for Wagner and his loyalty to Huddersfield, you're right, he may not wish to leave a small way through his project.
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Re: Next Manager?

Post by villabromsgrove on Wed Oct 05, 2016 2:04 pm

Sandie wrote:Equally, we've got a number of experienced players and players who have played at the highest level. Will some contenders have sufficient gravitas to get them on side even if their CVs are lacking?
I'm surprised that I feel the way I do about employing a fresh face.

I've been firmly in the 'experienced manager' camp for so long, but what is changing my opinion is the lack of an energetic buzz around our squad. We've played eleven Championship teams so far, and with a couple of exceptions they've all looked like they were fitter, better coached and had more desire than us.

As a player gets older it must be harder for him to get excited and motivated by doing the same old things that he's done day after day after day! It's made me think that this could be the same for managers. For example, David Moyes is one of my favourite managers, and yet if I stop to think when Moyes was last at his best it was some seasons back. DM looks a tired man doing the same things over and over again and getting slightly less back from his efforts as time goes by. It's the law of diminishing returns.

The younger 'new breed' of managers may not have the experience of a Bruce or a Clarke, but they have a burning desire to become the best, and boundless energy to make it happen. We need to tap into that.
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